Tony Attwood
Flyweight
Posts:51
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| 11 Mar 2008 3:33 PM |
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Thank-you BoxingGloves,
There is little I can do other than say that club training and sparring does not need the diabetologist present. This is just as non diabetic boxers do not have to have a doctor present when training/sparring.
Your son would need to go through the full protocol to get a ME3 before sparring so that all was in place should he have competition. That is the biggest problem at present.
I have no jurisdiction over any club or coach and unfortunately if one does not want to train any particular person there is nothing we can do.
Bandanaman, with regard to disabilities, it is not aimed at the boxers.
Every boxer has to be fit enough and able bodied enough to pass the medical and then be up to the standard the coach wants to train them to. That will not change yet although there has been a question raised over deafness and a leg amputee was actually assessed in the ring. The inclusivity for disabled persons is for general club activities and officiating/admin etc. |
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larks
Light Flyweight
Posts:30
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| 11 Mar 2008 4:43 PM |
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Tony,
What a load of crap you talk.
A diabetic boxer is as able bodied and as fit as a non diabetic boxer and you know it, you just wont admit it. It is impossible to tell by looking at a person weather or not they have diabetes. It is left to the honstey of the individual involved and I would advise anyone who was diabetic and taking up boxing NOT to disclose the fact.
You and the abae have not encouraged the involvement of diabetics at all. I have been fighting to get my son a me3 card for almost five years, his specialist even agreed to attend EVERY bout he would be entered into, that was not good enough for you or abae, it had to be a CONSULTANT.
Please dont get you hopes up " boxing gloves" because you will find the door slammed in your face from the abae at every turn. If they were serious about letting anyone with diabetes box it would of happened by now.
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Zo
Light Flyweight
Posts:2
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| 13 Mar 2008 5:37 PM |
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This is a silly thing to be going on, diabetics are all different and they should be allowed to box. No i have read this i no i can't box, ive had diabetes for 10 1/2 years, i've wanted to get into boxing but no i obviously can't! It is a real shame that such a sport is taking this point but there isn't much we can do! All i can say though is my diabetes team would never come to any fights that i would take part in if i asked them and a diabetes consultant, i don't think i even have one! I have a diabetes nurse but not a specialist consultant that i know of!
in my opinion i see where both sides are coming from, the ABAE need to protect themselves and their members but i do believe diabetics should be allowed to box! Also you should speak to us, we are the one's with the diabetes, we are the one's who know what our bodies can and can't take, we know how our control is and how to deal with exercise! So you should speak to the real specialists and get their opinion, you should speak to the people with diabetes!
I know will not be able to live the dream of fighting for my local town and possibly if i ever got to that level fighting for my country, i just hope one day i will be able to! Until then i guess it will have to be boxercising and boxing training at home! As if i told my local club that i had diabetes there would probably be no chance of them even training me!
it's a shame but i just hope it gets resolved positively, with the people high up thinking about it and speaking to the people that it will affect! |
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Tony Attwood
Flyweight
Posts:51
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| 15 Mar 2008 10:08 AM |
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Zo,
I appreciate your comments and can only tell you what the official position is. That is certainly not what are the rubbished comments by Larks & Jasper.
I can also tell you that you do have a specialist consultant doctor ultimately responsible for your diabetes care. You may only see a specialist nurse but that nurse is responsible to a diabetologist. These are the NHS rules. As a result, for you to box, you have to have the backing of that doctor who has the overall responsibility for your care. For boxing events you have to have the attendance of a DOCTOR who is a specialist in diabetes approved by your consultant if it is not your consultant themself.
This is where Larks gets so misguided and upset. The rules have never been changed about the Doctor being present except to relax them from "the consultant" to "a specialist doctor approved by the consultant". So I have tried to make it easier. The "specialist" that Larks goes on about as not being allowed is quite simply a nurse specialist and NOT a doctor.
No boxing is allowed without a doctor being present and for diabetics that doctor has to be a specialist in diabetes. This is so that safety can be maintained and (with luck) we will get a knowledge base from practical experience that will allow the rules to be relaxed more in future. At present AMATEUR boxing has to defend itself from so much medical and political flack that we have to have the Specialists giving their unified approval. That is slowly moving forwards and I am still talking to the diabetologists to make it easier for you and other type 1 diabetics but the blockage is still from their associations who will not give the approval.
Please ignore biggoted comments and seek the truth.
The ABAE is working through Diabetes UK and consultants to get things changed despite the International AIBA rule change from last year. We are having to present it as a trial and need results before blanket clearance can be given. This is another reason why Consultant diabetologists have to give their approval.
These are NOT MY rules (as suggested by Larks, Jasper etc.) but those of the ABAE through the Medical Commission and based upon advice from doctors and diabetologists generally.
Good luck.
Tony Attwood (Chairman ABAE Medical Commission)
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BoxingGloves
Light Flyweight
Posts:0
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| 16 Mar 2008 10:41 PM |
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So can someone clarify just so that I have this clear:
A boxer with diabetes can fight in a competition if he has a Clinical Nurse Specialist ringside (approved by the consultant)? (in our case this is not unrealistic to achieve)
Can that boxer train at a club by sparring? Does he have to have a medical card to do this?
Does the problem lie with getting the medical card and how can he achieve this?
He is fit and well.
I'm ashamed to say that I probably wouldn't have disclosed his condition if I was aware of the prejudice and discrimination he would face beforehand. |
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Tony Attwood
Flyweight
Posts:51
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| 17 Mar 2008 9:36 PM |
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BoxingGloves
The answer is NO: a nurse is not allowed to supervise.
A clinical NURSE specialist is not a doctor.
This is the whole point of Larks disagreements.
Please read the rules carefully and my replies regarding diabetics.
The medical care at boxing tournaments MUST be by a DOCTOR (for all boxers)
For diabetic boxers, if the consultant can not attend but notifies the ABAE Medical Commission of another named specialist doctor that the consultant is happy to take responsibility then that specialist is acting for the consultant and can look after that diabetic boxer.
The doctor looking after the diabetic must have been pre-notified by the consultant to the ABAE. This is one area that I have been able to relax the previous rules that said only the consultant could be in charge.
With regard to sparring, I believe that clubs insist on a Medical card before someone can spar. For a diabetic to have a medical record card then all the previous requirements have to be in place but the doctor does not have to be present for sparring (just as for non diabetics)
The medical documents are legal documents and false statements made by anyone would invalidate any insurance let alone put the applicant at risk. We all know that there is a risk associated with boxing. Those risks have been assessed and rules established. Rules are there for a purpose and I emphasise again that for medical rules they are there to optimise safety. I am not a diabetologist and I and ABAE Medical Commission take (and accept) advice from the specialists. That is why the rules concerning diabetics are as they are. They are NOT "my" rules. ALL rules have to be assessed and approved by the Rules committee upon advice given to them. Occasionally something slips through the system but, if it is discovered that the rules have been broken, disciplinary action is taken. |
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Bandanaman
Flyweight
Posts:63
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| 17 Mar 2008 11:49 PM |
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With regard to sparring, I believe that clubs insist on a Medical card before someone can spar.
That is not the case in any club that I have ever been involved with or visited Tony. It's a coach and horses hole in the very fabric of any duty of care policy the ABAE may believe they have in place. There is no rule in the book that covers this and no desire to enforce such even if it were so as it simply would not be practical. My guess would be that many diabetics, be they diagnosed or otherwise, actually train and spar in boxing clubs every day of the week. I have heard of a couple of cases where 6 months down the line when it comes to a formal medical, lads have failed for wearing Contact Lenses. Why? They simply didn't know, were never asked and were never told! |
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larks
Light Flyweight
Posts:30
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| 18 Mar 2008 10:18 AM |
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OPEN YOUR EYES ATTWOOD.
Of cause people with diabetes spar in a ring they do not need a medical card for this, unless you are now going to change the rules AGAIN.
As with regards to the guidelines that are in place which would allow people with diabetes to enter into bouts, there is nothing that has been put forward by DUK, BSPED, ABCD or DR COOPER that states a diabetologist should be present. The abae (YOU) have decided this because you know that the guidelines are obtainable by any well controled diabetic but to get a CONSULTANT to attend EVERY bout that someone would be entered into is never going to happen.
There is a blanket ban on anyone with diabetes entering into this sport. There is NO evidence to suggest that they are more at rise than anyone who do not have diabetes, just one mans biase opinion.
I would still go as far as saying to anyone who has diabetes and reading this DO NOT DISCLOSE the fact, but do make sure you are well controlled and follow YOUR specialist nurses advise. |
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BoxingGloves
Light Flyweight
Posts:0
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| 19 Mar 2008 7:14 PM |
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Heck this is far more complicated than it needs to be surely?
Where is the information leaflet that the ABAE produces for clubs and boxers that explains all this in a nice easy format? I've been unable to find one so far!
I do realise that a clincial NURSE specialist is not a doctor, but she would be OK to supervise under the direction of his paediatrician? You mentioned a CNS in a previous post and inferred that they could supervise. I realise this would be on behalf of a Consultant. Does it have to be a diebetologist, or would an endocrinologist or paediatrician do?
Is there a directive in place that prohibits sparring in training? That is unclear from above, you all have different opinions.
Is there a directive in place that prohibits boxing in training?
Who can provide clear information of getting a medical card when diabetes is a factor?
Clearly I wouldn't put my son at risk in any way and also wouldn't advocate non-disclosure of a medical issue, but given the lack of clarity, it's easy to see why someone would.
Does the ABAE provide information and guidance to their clubs on medical matters?
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JASPER
Flyweight
Posts:62
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| 19 Mar 2008 9:10 PM |
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Boxing Gloves - doctors and paramedics that attend boxing shows come from all disciplines, within the medical world and specialize in a particular field. The appointed doctor deals with any situation that may occur ie: broken bones, asthma attacks, fits, KO's etc. So why there has to be a specialists diabetologists consultant in attendance is a farce.
A.I. Attwood will do everything within his power to erradicate diabetics from within the ABAE because he will not tolerate opposition to the rules he helped to compile (biggot does spring to mind).
My lad has never stopped open sparing and competing from the age of 9 and continues to do so travelling up and down the country. He has been rated by many a coach as the best 75kg 92yr lad in the UK that they have seen.
His diabetic consultant has encouraged him to continue boxing and on a recent full medical with a registered ABAE doctor was told he was the fittest diabetic he had seen.
The rules wont change as long as Mr. Attwood is at the helm and he has shown he will go the extra mile for it to remain this way. |
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BoxingGloves
Light Flyweight
Posts:0
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| 20 Mar 2008 10:05 PM |
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Jasper, you must be a fair age if your son is 92! Fair play to him and long may he continue!!!
I completely understand that a diabetic isn't going to present with anything in a boxing ring that any doctor in attendance won't be able to manage (or certainly should be able to manage).
Does your son have a medical certificate and who does he have in attendance when he competes?
My sons consultant paediatrician would also encourage him to continue to participate in any active sport and isn't adverse to boxing.
What isn't very clear is how the rules that Dr Atwood compiled can even be complied with as it's hard to get a clear picture written down of what they actually are! |
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JASPER
Flyweight
Posts:62
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| 21 Mar 2008 3:42 PM |
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Hi boxing gloves
My son held an ABAE ME3 card from the age of 11 until he was diagnosed with diabetes at the age of 12. He is now 15.
The medical chairman of the ABAE then went on a one man crusade to instigate a total ban on diabetics competing in England even though they were competing worldwide under the AIBA banner, but then the medical chairman canoodled his way into the realms of the AIBA medical commission and BINGO theres a worldwide ban throughout AIBA nations. He then in familar patronizing tone said "its nothing to do with me".
All boxing shows have a doctor and paramedics in attendance but the best person to have ringside for a diabetic to compete is the person who knows them well and understands their condition ie their coach, because he ultimately is more responsive to the way his boxer is performing and would know if there was cause for concern. You could have the top specialist diabetologist in Great Britain ringside but he couldnt see what the coach sees. Well controlled diabetics are at no disadvantage whatsoever. |
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Zo
Light Flyweight
Posts:2
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| 19 Aug 2008 1:06 PM |
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| can i just get clarifcation on if there's anything new happened in regards to this and what's situation. Is it still you have to have you're diabetes team at a bout for you to be allowed to fight? |
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JASPER
Flyweight
Posts:62
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| 06 Sep 2008 3:34 PM |
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| Zo - I think your question has been answered with the silence from within the ABAE Medical Commission, Chaired by the VINTNER who has limited knowledge on the subject. If you posted a question about cosmetic surgery you would probably get a reply immediately OUCH!!!! |
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Zo
Light Flyweight
Posts:2
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| 15 Sep 2008 10:15 PM |
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| lol, I just want to know so that i can speak to Diabetes UK and get the ruling changed! But i need to be certain of what the situation is before i speak to them, so that i can tell them properly! |
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Tony Attwood
Flyweight
Posts:51
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| 26 Sep 2008 9:23 PM |
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Zo,
The only thing that has changed is that the ABAE Medical registrars are refusing to issue medical record cards to anyone who has diabetes even if all the other requirements requested by the Medical Commission have been met.
The ABAE Medical commission still needs boxers with diabetes to have their diabetes specialist doctors looking after them when they box and that has been agreed as the basis for us to run a trial to prove it is safe for diabetics to box.
This also now has the backing of ABCD. I have recently received a letter from the Chairman of ABCD agreeing to support us in allowing stable type 1 diabetics to box according to the DUK and ABAE Medical commission guidelines.
We are currently frustrated as we have a 16 year old with type 1 diabetes who has the specialist doctors agreeing to attend and who has passed the ME1 medical but cannot get a card despite the Medical Commission having given their approval.
Sorry I can do no more.
Tony Attwood |
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larks
Light Flyweight
Posts:30
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| 01 Nov 2008 9:55 PM |
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Well ATTWOOD strikes again!!!!!!!
Due to a recent change of address I found myself in a position where my son was trainning at a welsh boxing gym, where they allow diabetics to enter into bouts. He obtained his medical card with the backing of his GP and CONSULTANT. He reached the finals of the WELSH NOVICE CHAMPIONSHIP, he was due to have his final bout tomorrow, 2 nov 08.
Unfortuntaley an unknown sorce informed the WABA that diabetic were not allowed to enter into bouts, they replied that the WABW did. The sorce replied that IABA, dont and my son sholud be pulled from the finals, and do not allow to fight, now the WABE do not allow diabetics to fight. Strange!!!
If ATTWOOD was ready to put his money where his big mouth is this subject would of been put to rest a long time ago, not still raging on over three years down the line.
How much longer must diabetics suffer this DISCRIMATION..........................................
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Tony Attwood
Flyweight
Posts:51
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| 04 Nov 2008 12:13 AM |
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Oh dear Larks!
Barking up the wrong tree again. You can not blame me for other people's actions.
Perhaps you should actually read the posts instead of assuming.
In the last 6 months
I have gained assistance for diabetics to box from consultants.
I have nothing to do with IABA.
I have nothing to do with Welsh ABA.
I have not spoken to anyone in Welsh ABA
I do not make rules, although the ABAE Medical Commission does make suggestions to England ABA.
The ABAE Medical Commission has suggested that ABAE do allow type 1 diabetics to box in a trial to see if they can then compete safely on equal terms with non diabetics.
I believe that that means that the DOCTORS are actually trying to help type 1 diabetics to box SAFELY.
The ABAE Medical Commission is still trying to do this but we can only act within England.
Wales has its own ruling body that is nothing to do with ABAE
I have had nothing to do with discrimination against your son and you know that.
Perhaps you should try to work with us instead of getting angry and getting the wrong end of your own arguments.
Anthony I Attwood |
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